27 thoughts on “What barriers exist between Puerto Ricans on the island and in the U.S.?”
Barriers listed
There are geographic, cultural and, at this point, historical barriers between island Puerto Ricans and those stateside. There is always the issue of language and of class too which is significant.
da forum
Hola, me llamo Rici, I waz born & raised in N.Y.C. mostly Harlem & da Bronx.
Soy puro Boricua de pura cepa. Although I am not perfectly bilingual, I do speak Spanish fairly well. I am infinitely proud to be 1st Boricua and 2nd Nuyorican. I came up in a large & poor family all of us were born in N.Y.C. and we never been to P.R. so we learned the little we knew of our culture by word
of mouth. Back in the 60s & 70s we did not have the info, that is now so
available in N.Y.C. about our Rican Roots. I now live in Houston Texas and
have done well for my self, bein dat I came from what most used to say, a
hopeless case. I try very hard to represent my self as I see it, a very
rich and diverse cultural back ground and try to share that to all can.
I wish to take this time to let you all know that these kinds of web pages
are so valuable to me and many like me. We need to be able to access info,
on ours. I used to go to the library, and the literature is so limited when
it comes to Boricua issues or subjects etc. I could recall the 1st time I went to la isla, I was about 33 years old and did not speak Spanish very well. I could recall how many Rican over there looked down at me and it made me feel very disgusted, especially after I remembered so many Rican’s from la isla coming to N.Y. we would give our arms and legs to help them out and encourage them to hang tuff. We would help them learn English and find jobs etc. well I was most disappointed with that experience. What I would like to see more of, are our stories and contributions to this Nation as well as la isla Del Encanto. We should and must link and bond together as a people before we can phantom the thought of being a nation. I hope I am not carrying on too much. Well I will let you go now. Peace, love y sobre todos, echan palante mi jente.
Con cariño, Ricardo Sanchez
RE: Barriers listed
Let’s also not forget the one shared by many PR men–young or old–SEXISM. Too many of us Latinos have an idea as to where women should be. In addition, let’s not also forget the view that it’s been ok for men to have mistresses (and in some cases, children). The wife, of course is supposed to shut up and bear it! Fortunately, this practice may be dying out, but the roots–the view that men should lead–are still there and still active.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
How is sexism a barrier between island and stateside Puerto Ricans? I’m not saying it isn’t, I would just like to see your thoughts on this.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
So, geography, language and class are barriers, but not view towards women? Would there be no differences between what (say) US born PRs and islanders feel and behave towards their women? I’ll ask it this way: being born in the US after the feminist revolution would tend to (at a minimum) give one a different outlook as to what women are capable of doing.PRs on the island are insistent that their culture should be respected. In common with many (if not all) cultures, however, part of the “baggage” is the subordination of women–this is not a PR problem, but a human one, I hasten to add. Would there be no “barriers” between one who let’s say moved from the US to PR and vice cersa, at least in the view of treatment of women? I think there would–granted, I’ve done no sociological study on the matter, so if anyone has, let us all know.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
I believe the “machismo factor” has existed for many, many moons within all the Latino cultures my friend. It’s a matter of catching up with the modernism and equalization roles of today’s women.
I see a greater barrier exisiting regarding traditions. As mainlanders we
tend to carry and assimilate into the
anglo-american lifestlyes while naturally those born on the island have
the purist of traditions within the culture, language and lifestyle.
Point in case: Many of our children who
are born and raised in the U.S. cannot
speak Spanish or have never eaten lechosa, arroz dulce, guava etc.. Many
have never heard of the tradition of
Epiphany (Three Kings Day) and its meaning.
These are the types of barriers that we
as Puerto Ricans should never let exist
in order for the culture to continue.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Ah, yes. Guess length of time is relevant. I of course agree with the statement that our children are being raised without any knowledge of their culture–I hope when they do get this “knowledge,” sexism won’t be part of it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Yes, I also hope that sexism won’t be part of the knowledge attained by our
children; especially as we progress towards a future in which knowledge and
understanding evolves in a more informed and educated degree.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Si existe esa barrera cultural es porque
los puertorriqueños que han emigrado a los EE.UU. han fallado en transmitir a sus hijos la cultura puertorriqueña. Por lo tanto es responsabilidad de nostros como adultos, en especial los que somos padres. Mi hija de siete años nació en Los Angeles, California. Pero ella conoce de la historia de su patria que es PUERTO RICO, come comida puertorriqueña de la misma forma que come pizza o suchi. Celebra la epifania (reyes magos. y hasta busca la yerbita pa’los camellos) y habla el español borincano PERFECTO a la vez que se enriquece aprendiendo formas de español de niños mejicanos y centroamericanos. Y, por supuesto su ingles es tambien perfecto. De nuevo, si hay barreras que nos separan es porque hemos dejado que eso ocurra. Ya sea por apatía de unos, complejo de inferioridad de otros, etc. Pero lo importante es saber que nosotros tenemos la llave para resolver esas supuestas “barreras o diferencias”, las cuales, creo yo, son fáciles de derrumbar. Despues de todo, no importa donde nos encontremos (o donde hayamos nacido o criado) un boricua es un borica, como dice el poema de Corretjer, “aunque naciera en la luna”. Iván
RE: da forum
I am sorry about your experience of disgust when you visited the island. I was born in Puerto Rico but was raised in New York. When I first returned to PR I was 15 years old. I went there, forced by my mother, for Navidad. Of course at the dreaded age of 16 who wants to be separated from their friends–so needless to say, I was miserable. Everyone was very nice to me and I could feel their warmth, however at that time I felt like I was Puerto Rican but I was not one of “them”. When the clock struck 12 I was very stanfoffish and told people that I was on NY time and therefore it was not the New Year for me yet. A part of me felt very left out during that trip but it was clearly not them but me; my lack of exposure and age.
On the other hand on another trip as an adult I did experience a standoffishness at a restaurant (from the owner and staff) in Fajardo. It was clear that they saw me as an outsider and was treated negligently. This was a restaurant, so therefore lack of exposure would not qualify as an explanation. There were obvious biases on their part.
I had another experience here in NY with a friend of mine who was explained by an associate to the others at the table (after a comment rooted in his Puerto Rican (island) orientation) as a “foreigner” because he was from PR. (Unbeknownst to the explainer [who by the way was Anglo] my friend was born in Brooklyn and moved to PR when he was 8.)
I guess I say this all to say that there are obvious prejudices between both groups (and others) and most are based on ignorance (whether due to lack of exposure or just plain human nature). I am certain however, that with communication of this sort we can start to break some of the barriers as we become more educated, exposed and sensitized to this very important subject. –Paz!
RE: RE: Barriers listed
Let’s begin by clarifying that when you refer to U.S. born PR’s and islanders and what they feel towards their women–you should specify that you are referring to males. A Puerto Rican is not necessarily male unless you state this. I didn’t know if you were including women and lesbians among those U.S. born Puerto Ricans and islanders. Were you?
It seems you are really only looking at men in relation to men. I would think that Puerto Rican women would be experiencing barriers in a more complex manner: In relation to her men from Puerto Rico and in relation to men who are ethnically Puerto Rican from the U.S. But also our stateside women would be feeling barriers in relation to her men in the states as well as in relation to men from Puerto Rico. Now how does this get played out among mixed couples? That is, if one partner is from Puerto Rico and the other is from the States? And vice versa. I think also you use the word barrier when you really mean difference. It’s different. If you think about it. They are not interchangeable. I think barriers begin when a Puerto Rican man from the island has a set of expectations that are inconsistent with what a woman from the States has been raised to have for herself. And this must also exist in reverse. I have had different kinds of boyfriends and the Puerto Rican ones have been born and raised in the States. I always felt a little bit more inhibited around Puerto Ricans from the island because I felt that they wanted me to be much more effeminate and retiring–which I don’t really enjoy being. I wasn’t raised to be this way. But this just doesn’t apply to men from Puerto Rico. I find European men to have more fixed views of what a woman is. And these different sets of expectations create, I think, barriers between us. It’s a pity because men from the island are so good looking!
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
It’s difficult for me to understand all of what you’re saying, so if I don’t respond, that’s why. (a) Yes, I suppose technically I should have specified men’s relation to women (sorry, all the lesbians out there). However–and this might be an interesting forum discussion; namely, the way homosexuality & lesbianism has been looked at by our culture, heavily (sadly) Catholic and Protestant as it is(b)No, I mean barriers, not differences; actually, I didn’t understand this point. And there
are barriers faced by PR women–machismo doesn’t exist in a vacuum(c)I can’t comment on European men until we get the European Man Forum :-)(d) Men from the island “good-looking”? Huh.
Identity vs. Status
It seems to me that pondering questions of identity and nationality is the favorite pasttime of Puerto Ricans. In the U.S. I think we are preoccupied with the proverbial identity question that we share with other Americans but which is especially stinging for us. Why? Because we live in a kind of schizoid state–of being American and feeling that we are Puerto Rican although we can’t speak the language. In Puerto Rico there is the national question–or let me re-phrase this and call it the status question. On the island Puerto Ricans are confronted with the problem of colonialism and the schizophrenic condition it has generated. They feel they are American but they feel more Puerto Rican and, actually, can not speak the language of their colonizer with any real fluency. Now this creates a real barrier between Puerto Rican-Americans and Puerto Ricans proper, that is, those from the island. We are at cross-purposes with each other. When Puerto Rican-Americans discuss the status question, they always seem to raise issues that American ethnics generally raise and hope to resolve for themselves within the U.S. This is really unsatisfactory for me. One can not sacrifice an entire nation in order to achieve one’s civil rights. I don’t think many Puerto Ricans on the island enter into discussions about us here and how to ameliorate our conditions. For those of us who need amelioration–about half of our stateside population–which amounts to a quarter of the entire Puerto Rican population both on the island and stateside. They did early on when the Puerto Rican government has an office here to smooth the transition from the warm tropics to the cold urban climes. But we’re not an immigrant population any more. As a nation, we are divided, linguistically and socially with all the ensuing implications. This I hope helps in delineating some of the barriers between us.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Yes, I think the problem is in relating our culture to our descendants. I guess, that’s why a site like this is important. It both extends our culture, following its devolution, as well as preserves it, making it available for posterity. I hope this website never goes down! I think there is the problem in general of not knowing one’s culture and, therefore, not knowing what to consciously give to future generations. I myself have had to pick through things over the years in a marketa of artifacts and ideas. I also wonder how much time or effort Puerto Ricans on the island spend trying to learn about us stateside. But maybe this doesn’t make much sense since they are the source.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
I think your question about how much time Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico (the mainland) spend learning about Puerto Ricans stateside is, indeed, a valid one. My feeling is that they don’t but I think it would be fruitful to explore why not. Why don’t they have as much of an interest in us as we do in them? One reason is that stateside we feel cut off from our roots. Our identity is problematic because of the ethnic and racial prejudice directed towards us here in the U.S. and the general devaluation of our culture through stereotyping, being ignored or being made fun of. We’re basically invisible to the gringo and also invisible to ourselves. And so we begin to draw and paint in the details of who we are in order to feel real, grounded, authentic, validated. We do this by searching for our roots–which brings us to Puerto Rico. In Puerto Rico they don’t experience this pressure because they are the majority. They aren’t marginalized, they are colonized which is a different form of “oppression” altogether. And of course Puerto Rico is unique in having its material level of existence raised across the boards for the general population–which makes it hard to convince them (the general population) that they are oppressed. Be that as it may, Puerto Ricans on the island don’t seek us out because they are not deracinated. And in anycase if they were to seek us out, what could we offer them?
RE: RE: da forum
I think it’s a mistake to generalize from one or two incidents. Although you are free to do so and most of us do! The reality is that on a day to day basis I meet people from different walks of life and of different ethnicities and races. Some of them interact positively with me, some of them negatively, most of them indifferently. And what am I to make out of this? Well, I think it’s important to look at what I am seeking or expecting from them. I think this is key to understanding or misunderstanding what is going on in any human interaction because it colors my perception and the other’s perception of me. I don’t think your anecdote should be interpreted to mean anything but that you did not have a particularly friendly interaction with the owner.
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Clara, I loved your response… as alway very “clear.” I especially liked your last comment! LOL
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Thanks Cotorrita. I’d like to hear more from you on the subject.
Asesor Económico del Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño
Profesor de Economía
Universidad de Puerto Rico
Durante los pasados cuarenta y cinco anos, después que se fundó el ELA,
Puerto Rico ha ido acentuando su dependencia económica con respecto
a los Estados Unidos. La dependencia se manifiesta en el sostenimiento de una estructura de producción industrial amparada en las leyes contributivas norteamericanas y en relaciones de comercio exterior casi exclusivas con los Estados Unidos.
Las consecuencias socioeconómicas de la dependencia son aún más profundas. Según datos oficiales, sobre el 50% de las familias en Puerto Rico dependen de manera directa de algún tipo de programa de beneficiencia subsidiado por el gobierno federal. A este hecho contundente se añade un problema cada vez más crítico de desempleo que, al considerar la baja tasa de participación laboral, se proyecta a niveles reales de entre 30 y 35% de la fuerza obrera. Frente a esta realidad se ha desarrollado en Puerto Rico un gigantesco sector de economía subterránea, buena parte del mismo basado en el trasiego de drogas y en el crimen organizado.
Para completar el cuadro anterior, no debemos perder de perspectiva que Puerto Rico tiene un ingreso Per Cápita equivalente a una tercera parte del ingreso de los Estados Unidos y a menos de la mitad del ingreso del estado más pobre de la unión norteamericana.
Ciertamente, el modelo económico del ELA -amparado en la dependencia- da señales de un agotamiento irreversible.
La eliminación de la Seccion 936 representa sin duda el punto culminante en la historia deldesarrollo dependiente de Puerto Rico. Como resultado de este
escenario, invertir en Puerto Rico no representa ventajas económicas lo
suficientemente grandes como para impulsar un aumento en la acumulación
de capital y, por ende, en la producción.
La situación de crisis económica del ELA es el marco de referencia obligado para proyectar lo que significaría la transición hacia la estadidad. Dicho en términos muy concretos, la estadidad para Puerto Rico representaría la multiplicación de la dependencia. El
Congreso y el Tesoro reconocen que los desembolsos del gobierno federal
a Puerto Rico bajo las condiciones socioeconómicas descritas aumentarían
sustancialmente tan pronto advenga la estadidad. Evidentemente, el aumento de gastos federales en Puerto Rico contrastaría irreconciliablemente con el objetivo trazado por el Congreso de nivelar el presupuesto federal para los primeros años de la próxima década.
De otra parte, la capacidad de aportación de los sectores que en
Puerto Rico podrían contribuir con el pago de impuestos federales, irónicamente frenaria cualquier posiblidad de iniciar un proceso de
crecimiento local en un “estado puertorriqueño”, ya que la ventaja
competitiva del “estado” sería nula con respecto a otras jurisdicciones en el Hemisferio. En otras palabras, la estadidad, en vez de promover el
crecimiento económico y de contribuir a solucionar los problemas fiscales de los Estados Unidos, provocaría un aumento en el déficit presupuestario federal y abriría el camino para perpetuar la condición de dependencia. Por esa razón sostengo que la estadidad no representa
una opción viable para los Estados Unidos en el caso de Puerto Rico.
De otro lado, los acontecimientos de las pasadas dos décadas demuestran que la independencia ha sido el camino que han tomado los países con economías similares a la de Puerto Rico. Las ventajas de la independencia en nuestro caso son obvias; amplia experiencia en
producción manufacturera; la existencia de una infraestructura muy superior a la de la mayoría de los paises vecinos; dominio del econocimiento tecnológico representado por una fuerza obrera y una clase profesional de primer orden; y un sistema educativo con características
similares a los de paises industriales, entre otras variables estratégicas.
La independencia permitiría establecer un sistema contributivo y de gasto público que responda a las realidades de nuestro pueblo; un sistema monetario adaptado a las condiciones de Puerto Rico y tratados comerciales que fomenten el intercambio con todos los paises y que nos permitan jugar un papel protagónico en la economia global. Con relación a este último aspecto, bajo el ELA o la estadidad Puerto Rico no puede
establecer relaciones comerciales libremente con los paises del Caribe y
con la comunidad latinoamericana inmediata al igual que, por supuesto,
con los Estados Unidos, Canadá y la Comunidad Europea. La independencia representa la única opción de status que abriría las puertas para un intercambio comercial libre de todo tipo de ataduras.
Más aún, la forma más efectiva de atraer capital externo es através de tratados contributivos y de acuerdos comerciales que sólo son posibles bajo la independencia. El aumento en la producción se logrará, además, a través del fomento de nuestro capital en diversas áreas de nuestra economía. Estos elementos promoverán una mayor autosuficiencia y se convertirán, en efecto, en la vía para romper con la dependencia para el beneficio mutuo de Puerto Rico y de los Estados Unidos.
Thanks for your post — I loved EVERYTHING you said!!!
RE: Barriers listed
Kiwi Smit:
“stateside” is new to me — could you please explain? By the way, I really appreciate your messages, you seem so well informed on the issues of the Puerto Rican — thank you.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
Of course he does–but that’s because I’m here to keep him honest!! 🙂
good to know
Yeah, it’s good to have such a range of different perspectives. It feels safe to have people who can debate these issues with passion and back them up with real facts. I struggle with the temptation of over-generalizing on points, but then when I hear someone come up with another view, I’m driven to take a second look. Thanks for being honest — it’s such a great service to people! Ciao!
RE: RE: Barriers listed
“Stateside” is used to describe Puerto Ricans or those of Puerto Rican heritage who live in the United States. It is my way of avoiding and actually rejecting the use of the word “mainland” to refer to the United States. In discussing Puerto Rican issues, I use the word “mainland” to indicate Puerto Rico. To avoid confusion I use the word “stateside.”
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
I guess we keep each other honest! 😉
tourist or native
I must admit that the last time I was in PR I really felt like a tourist. I think the main reason was that I did not spend any time with my relatives and basically stayed on the beach. I loved it. But some part of me was deeply saddened by not feeling connected to my people and feeling like a tourist. Let me tell you–this is a real nightmare! To suddenly awaken and feel that somehow you’re a thing a part from the people of the island. A thing apart–that is a gringo. I missed my family!
Barriers listed
There are geographic, cultural and, at this point, historical barriers between island Puerto Ricans and those stateside. There is always the issue of language and of class too which is significant.
da forum
Hola, me llamo Rici, I waz born & raised in N.Y.C. mostly Harlem & da Bronx.
Soy puro Boricua de pura cepa. Although I am not perfectly bilingual, I do speak Spanish fairly well. I am infinitely proud to be 1st Boricua and 2nd Nuyorican. I came up in a large & poor family all of us were born in N.Y.C. and we never been to P.R. so we learned the little we knew of our culture by word
of mouth. Back in the 60s & 70s we did not have the info, that is now so
available in N.Y.C. about our Rican Roots. I now live in Houston Texas and
have done well for my self, bein dat I came from what most used to say, a
hopeless case. I try very hard to represent my self as I see it, a very
rich and diverse cultural back ground and try to share that to all can.
I wish to take this time to let you all know that these kinds of web pages
are so valuable to me and many like me. We need to be able to access info,
on ours. I used to go to the library, and the literature is so limited when
it comes to Boricua issues or subjects etc. I could recall the 1st time I went to la isla, I was about 33 years old and did not speak Spanish very well. I could recall how many Rican over there looked down at me and it made me feel very disgusted, especially after I remembered so many Rican’s from la isla coming to N.Y. we would give our arms and legs to help them out and encourage them to hang tuff. We would help them learn English and find jobs etc. well I was most disappointed with that experience. What I would like to see more of, are our stories and contributions to this Nation as well as la isla Del Encanto. We should and must link and bond together as a people before we can phantom the thought of being a nation. I hope I am not carrying on too much. Well I will let you go now. Peace, love y sobre todos, echan palante mi jente.
Con cariño, Ricardo Sanchez
RE: Barriers listed
Let’s also not forget the one shared by many PR men–young or old–SEXISM. Too many of us Latinos have an idea as to where women should be. In addition, let’s not also forget the view that it’s been ok for men to have mistresses (and in some cases, children). The wife, of course is supposed to shut up and bear it! Fortunately, this practice may be dying out, but the roots–the view that men should lead–are still there and still active.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
How is sexism a barrier between island and stateside Puerto Ricans? I’m not saying it isn’t, I would just like to see your thoughts on this.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
So, geography, language and class are barriers, but not view towards women? Would there be no differences between what (say) US born PRs and islanders feel and behave towards their women? I’ll ask it this way: being born in the US after the feminist revolution would tend to (at a minimum) give one a different outlook as to what women are capable of doing.PRs on the island are insistent that their culture should be respected. In common with many (if not all) cultures, however, part of the “baggage” is the subordination of women–this is not a PR problem, but a human one, I hasten to add. Would there be no “barriers” between one who let’s say moved from the US to PR and vice cersa, at least in the view of treatment of women? I think there would–granted, I’ve done no sociological study on the matter, so if anyone has, let us all know.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
I believe the “machismo factor” has existed for many, many moons within all the Latino cultures my friend. It’s a matter of catching up with the modernism and equalization roles of today’s women.
I see a greater barrier exisiting regarding traditions. As mainlanders we
tend to carry and assimilate into the
anglo-american lifestlyes while naturally those born on the island have
the purist of traditions within the culture, language and lifestyle.
Point in case: Many of our children who
are born and raised in the U.S. cannot
speak Spanish or have never eaten lechosa, arroz dulce, guava etc.. Many
have never heard of the tradition of
Epiphany (Three Kings Day) and its meaning.
These are the types of barriers that we
as Puerto Ricans should never let exist
in order for the culture to continue.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Ah, yes. Guess length of time is relevant. I of course agree with the statement that our children are being raised without any knowledge of their culture–I hope when they do get this “knowledge,” sexism won’t be part of it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Yes, I also hope that sexism won’t be part of the knowledge attained by our
children; especially as we progress towards a future in which knowledge and
understanding evolves in a more informed and educated degree.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Si existe esa barrera cultural es porque
los puertorriqueños que han emigrado a los EE.UU. han fallado en transmitir a sus hijos la cultura puertorriqueña. Por lo tanto es responsabilidad de nostros como adultos, en especial los que somos padres. Mi hija de siete años nació en Los Angeles, California. Pero ella conoce de la historia de su patria que es PUERTO RICO, come comida puertorriqueña de la misma forma que come pizza o suchi. Celebra la epifania (reyes magos. y hasta busca la yerbita pa’los camellos) y habla el español borincano PERFECTO a la vez que se enriquece aprendiendo formas de español de niños mejicanos y centroamericanos. Y, por supuesto su ingles es tambien perfecto. De nuevo, si hay barreras que nos separan es porque hemos dejado que eso ocurra. Ya sea por apatía de unos, complejo de inferioridad de otros, etc. Pero lo importante es saber que nosotros tenemos la llave para resolver esas supuestas “barreras o diferencias”, las cuales, creo yo, son fáciles de derrumbar. Despues de todo, no importa donde nos encontremos (o donde hayamos nacido o criado) un boricua es un borica, como dice el poema de Corretjer, “aunque naciera en la luna”. Iván
RE: da forum
I am sorry about your experience of disgust when you visited the island. I was born in Puerto Rico but was raised in New York. When I first returned to PR I was 15 years old. I went there, forced by my mother, for Navidad. Of course at the dreaded age of 16 who wants to be separated from their friends–so needless to say, I was miserable. Everyone was very nice to me and I could feel their warmth, however at that time I felt like I was Puerto Rican but I was not one of “them”. When the clock struck 12 I was very stanfoffish and told people that I was on NY time and therefore it was not the New Year for me yet. A part of me felt very left out during that trip but it was clearly not them but me; my lack of exposure and age.
On the other hand on another trip as an adult I did experience a standoffishness at a restaurant (from the owner and staff) in Fajardo. It was clear that they saw me as an outsider and was treated negligently. This was a restaurant, so therefore lack of exposure would not qualify as an explanation. There were obvious biases on their part.
I had another experience here in NY with a friend of mine who was explained by an associate to the others at the table (after a comment rooted in his Puerto Rican (island) orientation) as a “foreigner” because he was from PR. (Unbeknownst to the explainer [who by the way was Anglo] my friend was born in Brooklyn and moved to PR when he was 8.)
I guess I say this all to say that there are obvious prejudices between both groups (and others) and most are based on ignorance (whether due to lack of exposure or just plain human nature). I am certain however, that with communication of this sort we can start to break some of the barriers as we become more educated, exposed and sensitized to this very important subject. –Paz!
RE: RE: Barriers listed
Let’s begin by clarifying that when you refer to U.S. born PR’s and islanders and what they feel towards their women–you should specify that you are referring to males. A Puerto Rican is not necessarily male unless you state this. I didn’t know if you were including women and lesbians among those U.S. born Puerto Ricans and islanders. Were you?
It seems you are really only looking at men in relation to men. I would think that Puerto Rican women would be experiencing barriers in a more complex manner: In relation to her men from Puerto Rico and in relation to men who are ethnically Puerto Rican from the U.S. But also our stateside women would be feeling barriers in relation to her men in the states as well as in relation to men from Puerto Rico. Now how does this get played out among mixed couples? That is, if one partner is from Puerto Rico and the other is from the States? And vice versa. I think also you use the word barrier when you really mean difference. It’s different. If you think about it. They are not interchangeable. I think barriers begin when a Puerto Rican man from the island has a set of expectations that are inconsistent with what a woman from the States has been raised to have for herself. And this must also exist in reverse. I have had different kinds of boyfriends and the Puerto Rican ones have been born and raised in the States. I always felt a little bit more inhibited around Puerto Ricans from the island because I felt that they wanted me to be much more effeminate and retiring–which I don’t really enjoy being. I wasn’t raised to be this way. But this just doesn’t apply to men from Puerto Rico. I find European men to have more fixed views of what a woman is. And these different sets of expectations create, I think, barriers between us. It’s a pity because men from the island are so good looking!
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
It’s difficult for me to understand all of what you’re saying, so if I don’t respond, that’s why. (a) Yes, I suppose technically I should have specified men’s relation to women (sorry, all the lesbians out there). However–and this might be an interesting forum discussion; namely, the way homosexuality & lesbianism has been looked at by our culture, heavily (sadly) Catholic and Protestant as it is(b)No, I mean barriers, not differences; actually, I didn’t understand this point. And there
are barriers faced by PR women–machismo doesn’t exist in a vacuum(c)I can’t comment on European men until we get the European Man Forum :-)(d) Men from the island “good-looking”? Huh.
Identity vs. Status
It seems to me that pondering questions of identity and nationality is the favorite pasttime of Puerto Ricans. In the U.S. I think we are preoccupied with the proverbial identity question that we share with other Americans but which is especially stinging for us. Why? Because we live in a kind of schizoid state–of being American and feeling that we are Puerto Rican although we can’t speak the language. In Puerto Rico there is the national question–or let me re-phrase this and call it the status question. On the island Puerto Ricans are confronted with the problem of colonialism and the schizophrenic condition it has generated. They feel they are American but they feel more Puerto Rican and, actually, can not speak the language of their colonizer with any real fluency. Now this creates a real barrier between Puerto Rican-Americans and Puerto Ricans proper, that is, those from the island. We are at cross-purposes with each other. When Puerto Rican-Americans discuss the status question, they always seem to raise issues that American ethnics generally raise and hope to resolve for themselves within the U.S. This is really unsatisfactory for me. One can not sacrifice an entire nation in order to achieve one’s civil rights. I don’t think many Puerto Ricans on the island enter into discussions about us here and how to ameliorate our conditions. For those of us who need amelioration–about half of our stateside population–which amounts to a quarter of the entire Puerto Rican population both on the island and stateside. They did early on when the Puerto Rican government has an office here to smooth the transition from the warm tropics to the cold urban climes. But we’re not an immigrant population any more. As a nation, we are divided, linguistically and socially with all the ensuing implications. This I hope helps in delineating some of the barriers between us.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Yes, I think the problem is in relating our culture to our descendants. I guess, that’s why a site like this is important. It both extends our culture, following its devolution, as well as preserves it, making it available for posterity. I hope this website never goes down! I think there is the problem in general of not knowing one’s culture and, therefore, not knowing what to consciously give to future generations. I myself have had to pick through things over the years in a marketa of artifacts and ideas. I also wonder how much time or effort Puerto Ricans on the island spend trying to learn about us stateside. But maybe this doesn’t make much sense since they are the source.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
I think your question about how much time Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico (the mainland) spend learning about Puerto Ricans stateside is, indeed, a valid one. My feeling is that they don’t but I think it would be fruitful to explore why not. Why don’t they have as much of an interest in us as we do in them? One reason is that stateside we feel cut off from our roots. Our identity is problematic because of the ethnic and racial prejudice directed towards us here in the U.S. and the general devaluation of our culture through stereotyping, being ignored or being made fun of. We’re basically invisible to the gringo and also invisible to ourselves. And so we begin to draw and paint in the details of who we are in order to feel real, grounded, authentic, validated. We do this by searching for our roots–which brings us to Puerto Rico. In Puerto Rico they don’t experience this pressure because they are the majority. They aren’t marginalized, they are colonized which is a different form of “oppression” altogether. And of course Puerto Rico is unique in having its material level of existence raised across the boards for the general population–which makes it hard to convince them (the general population) that they are oppressed. Be that as it may, Puerto Ricans on the island don’t seek us out because they are not deracinated. And in anycase if they were to seek us out, what could we offer them?
RE: RE: da forum
I think it’s a mistake to generalize from one or two incidents. Although you are free to do so and most of us do! The reality is that on a day to day basis I meet people from different walks of life and of different ethnicities and races. Some of them interact positively with me, some of them negatively, most of them indifferently. And what am I to make out of this? Well, I think it’s important to look at what I am seeking or expecting from them. I think this is key to understanding or misunderstanding what is going on in any human interaction because it colors my perception and the other’s perception of me. I don’t think your anecdote should be interpreted to mean anything but that you did not have a particularly friendly interaction with the owner.
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Clara, I loved your response… as alway very “clear.” I especially liked your last comment! LOL
RE: RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
Thanks Cotorrita. I’d like to hear more from you on the subject.
Articulo: Dependencia Economica
Dependencia Económica
Por Dr. Edwin Irizarry Mora
Asesor Económico del Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño
Profesor de Economía
Universidad de Puerto Rico
Durante los pasados cuarenta y cinco anos, después que se fundó el ELA,
Puerto Rico ha ido acentuando su dependencia económica con respecto
a los Estados Unidos. La dependencia se manifiesta en el sostenimiento de una estructura de producción industrial amparada en las leyes contributivas norteamericanas y en relaciones de comercio exterior casi exclusivas con los Estados Unidos.
Las consecuencias socioeconómicas de la dependencia son aún más profundas. Según datos oficiales, sobre el 50% de las familias en Puerto Rico dependen de manera directa de algún tipo de programa de beneficiencia subsidiado por el gobierno federal. A este hecho contundente se añade un problema cada vez más crítico de desempleo que, al considerar la baja tasa de participación laboral, se proyecta a niveles reales de entre 30 y 35% de la fuerza obrera. Frente a esta realidad se ha desarrollado en Puerto Rico un gigantesco sector de economía subterránea, buena parte del mismo basado en el trasiego de drogas y en el crimen organizado.
Para completar el cuadro anterior, no debemos perder de perspectiva que Puerto Rico tiene un ingreso Per Cápita equivalente a una tercera parte del ingreso de los Estados Unidos y a menos de la mitad del ingreso del estado más pobre de la unión norteamericana.
Ciertamente, el modelo económico del ELA -amparado en la dependencia- da señales de un agotamiento irreversible.
La eliminación de la Seccion 936 representa sin duda el punto culminante en la historia deldesarrollo dependiente de Puerto Rico. Como resultado de este
escenario, invertir en Puerto Rico no representa ventajas económicas lo
suficientemente grandes como para impulsar un aumento en la acumulación
de capital y, por ende, en la producción.
La situación de crisis económica del ELA es el marco de referencia obligado para proyectar lo que significaría la transición hacia la estadidad. Dicho en términos muy concretos, la estadidad para Puerto Rico representaría la multiplicación de la dependencia. El
Congreso y el Tesoro reconocen que los desembolsos del gobierno federal
a Puerto Rico bajo las condiciones socioeconómicas descritas aumentarían
sustancialmente tan pronto advenga la estadidad. Evidentemente, el aumento de gastos federales en Puerto Rico contrastaría irreconciliablemente con el objetivo trazado por el Congreso de nivelar el presupuesto federal para los primeros años de la próxima década.
De otra parte, la capacidad de aportación de los sectores que en
Puerto Rico podrían contribuir con el pago de impuestos federales, irónicamente frenaria cualquier posiblidad de iniciar un proceso de
crecimiento local en un “estado puertorriqueño”, ya que la ventaja
competitiva del “estado” sería nula con respecto a otras jurisdicciones en el Hemisferio. En otras palabras, la estadidad, en vez de promover el
crecimiento económico y de contribuir a solucionar los problemas fiscales de los Estados Unidos, provocaría un aumento en el déficit presupuestario federal y abriría el camino para perpetuar la condición de dependencia. Por esa razón sostengo que la estadidad no representa
una opción viable para los Estados Unidos en el caso de Puerto Rico.
De otro lado, los acontecimientos de las pasadas dos décadas demuestran que la independencia ha sido el camino que han tomado los países con economías similares a la de Puerto Rico. Las ventajas de la independencia en nuestro caso son obvias; amplia experiencia en
producción manufacturera; la existencia de una infraestructura muy superior a la de la mayoría de los paises vecinos; dominio del econocimiento tecnológico representado por una fuerza obrera y una clase profesional de primer orden; y un sistema educativo con características
similares a los de paises industriales, entre otras variables estratégicas.
La independencia permitiría establecer un sistema contributivo y de gasto público que responda a las realidades de nuestro pueblo; un sistema monetario adaptado a las condiciones de Puerto Rico y tratados comerciales que fomenten el intercambio con todos los paises y que nos permitan jugar un papel protagónico en la economia global. Con relación a este último aspecto, bajo el ELA o la estadidad Puerto Rico no puede
establecer relaciones comerciales libremente con los paises del Caribe y
con la comunidad latinoamericana inmediata al igual que, por supuesto,
con los Estados Unidos, Canadá y la Comunidad Europea. La independencia representa la única opción de status que abriría las puertas para un intercambio comercial libre de todo tipo de ataduras.
Más aún, la forma más efectiva de atraer capital externo es através de tratados contributivos y de acuerdos comerciales que sólo son posibles bajo la independencia. El aumento en la producción se logrará, además, a través del fomento de nuestro capital en diversas áreas de nuestra economía. Estos elementos promoverán una mayor autosuficiencia y se convertirán, en efecto, en la vía para romper con la dependencia para el beneficio mutuo de Puerto Rico y de los Estados Unidos.
http://www.independencia.net
I invite you to visit the following excellent web-page:
http://www.independencia.net
RE: da forum
WELL SAID, BORICUA!
Thanks for your post — I loved EVERYTHING you said!!!
RE: Barriers listed
Kiwi Smit:
“stateside” is new to me — could you please explain? By the way, I really appreciate your messages, you seem so well informed on the issues of the Puerto Rican — thank you.
RE: RE: Barriers listed
Of course he does–but that’s because I’m here to keep him honest!! 🙂
good to know
Yeah, it’s good to have such a range of different perspectives. It feels safe to have people who can debate these issues with passion and back them up with real facts. I struggle with the temptation of over-generalizing on points, but then when I hear someone come up with another view, I’m driven to take a second look. Thanks for being honest — it’s such a great service to people! Ciao!
RE: RE: Barriers listed
“Stateside” is used to describe Puerto Ricans or those of Puerto Rican heritage who live in the United States. It is my way of avoiding and actually rejecting the use of the word “mainland” to refer to the United States. In discussing Puerto Rican issues, I use the word “mainland” to indicate Puerto Rico. To avoid confusion I use the word “stateside.”
RE: RE: RE: Barriers listed
I guess we keep each other honest! 😉
tourist or native
I must admit that the last time I was in PR I really felt like a tourist. I think the main reason was that I did not spend any time with my relatives and basically stayed on the beach. I loved it. But some part of me was deeply saddened by not feeling connected to my people and feeling like a tourist. Let me tell you–this is a real nightmare! To suddenly awaken and feel that somehow you’re a thing a part from the people of the island. A thing apart–that is a gringo. I missed my family!